Curse

Evilsod · Jun 01, 2007, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Since this can't be discussed in the PvP Skill thread.

Is limiting the no. of Paragons in a team the only solution? That is, 1 or 2 Paragons max. As for secondaries i don't know, but this is mainly about the primaries.

I'm pretty sure many people have noticed how bad Paragons are becoming in PvE due the extreme and frequent nerfs they're receiving because of PvP. Truth is they're losing alot of effectiveness in PvP too because of teams of 4+ Paragons spamming chants leading to an intricate network of buffs that make things very powering. Single Paragons are nearly useless now.

So is this the only way of saving the Paragon? The change can be explained since the Paragon is a leader and having 4 different leaders doesn't quite make sense. This would completely stop builds like Paraway. But it would save the Paragons entire skill list.
I mean look at Incoming... originally lasted 7(?) seconds max. Been nerfed to 3 max. Its become effectively useless because of multiple Paragons chaining it.
The majority of the Motivation line? Some of these nerfs may have been needed anyway, the Restoration ones are reasonably strong, but they're still not direct heals.
Spear Mastery. Several of these have been nerfed because of the reasonable DPS the Para gets (from the extremely unfair IAS, Agressive Refrain, this skill really isn't balanced if compared to every other IAS in the game) and the spiking ability they have.
Command is also been nerfed bit by bit.
The Echos are almost useless to single paragons because of changes due to abuse in PvP.

So is this really the only solution to saving the Paragon before they get nerfed into oblivion? It may be drastic... but the nerfs have got to stop somewhere.

No discussions of changes to individual skills please, just this or other global changes that will save the Para from the nerfbat.

Puebert · Jun 01, 2007, 11:07 PM // 23:07

/notsigned

There are a few ways to solve the Paragon problem.

This is not one of them.

Replicant · Jun 02, 2007, 12:13 AM // 00:13

/notsigned

if you limit the amount of Paragons all other classes would have to go through the same limit.

Sadly PvP determines stuff happening in PvE, it's how Anet decided to nerf stuff in the past, and they'll continue to do so...

GloryFox · Jun 02, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22

/notsigned

Never had an issue joining a team (PUG) as a paragon unless it was an elite mission. Frankly Paragons still rock!

God Apprentice · Jun 02, 2007, 12:23 AM // 00:23

If you implement something like that you have 2 implement that for every class.

/notsigned

OhCrapLions · Jun 02, 2007, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Epic Fail. Not only would this have to cap other classes out of fairness, this would actually nerf organized teamwork.

/notsigned

Spike or Silence them.

JeniM · Jun 02, 2007, 12:45 AM // 00:45

lol The Deep with 2 W tanks 2 Eles 2 Necro 2 Monks and .... need 4 more randoms

/notsigned

ValaOfTheFens · Jun 02, 2007, 01:43 AM // 01:43

/notsigned

What made you come to the conclusion that limiting the number of Paragons in a party would save them? People would just create another degenerate build a lesser number of Paragons required and we'd be in the same place.

tenshi_strife · Jun 02, 2007, 03:04 AM // 03:04

yea um no but i think that has been said.... you wanna know how to help paragons make more skills that stop shouts and chants..... easy as that cause then shouts are like enchantments they are good but can be stopped.... yup there it is

and as far as op goes..... go kill yourself now... limits = i quit gw.

clawofcrimson · Jun 02, 2007, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Why not make the limit effect HA and GVG only...

only X number of any class allowed in a party... that would fix several gimmick builds:

~it would have fixed Iway
~paraway
~necroway
~etc.. ect... etc...

Leave the rest of the game as is... but give the 'balance' people what they want ...where they want.... in organized pvp.

tenshi_strife · Jun 02, 2007, 03:45 AM // 03:45

because claw you basically are saying kill strategy all together in Ha and GvG so that only balanced is possible and no more thinking of good builds that are fun... so pvp would turn into pve and all pvp players would quit GW right then and there... i know i would

yea no that is still a horrible idea. like i always say think about what your saying think.

clawofcrimson · Jun 02, 2007, 05:18 AM // 05:18

you call all para, (warrior, necro, etc...) teams good strategy???

qwe4rty · Jun 02, 2007, 05:45 AM // 05:45

I kinda like the prospect of gimmicks. I prefer playing balanced myself, but gimmicks do add a certain amount of spice.

tenshi_strife · Jun 02, 2007, 06:05 AM // 06:05

to claw, yes i do to some extent..... also i have many builds where i need 3 of something.... not a whole team but 3.... and your idea would completely kill that...

lyra_song · Jun 02, 2007, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Hows this?

Idea:Diminishing return on effects in multiple paragon parties.

Basically.....The more Paragon primaries in a party, the less effective (duration and amount heal/protected/etc) the effects of shouts/chants/echos on those paragons and the other party members

1 Paragon in party:
Paragon and Party gets 100% effect

2 Paragons in party:
The Paragon get 100% effect.
THe other paragon gets only 85% effect from Paragon 1.

3 Paragons in party:
The Paragon get 100% effect.
The other 2 paragons gain only 65% effect from Paragon 1

4 Paragons in party:
The Paragon get 100% effect.
The other 3 paragons gain only 30% effect from paragon 1

and so on and so forth.

-----
Having more than 2 paragons would be detrimental since its less and less effective.

edit: Made it more bold...

clawofcrimson · Jun 02, 2007, 06:41 AM // 06:41

@qwe4ty

actually gimmick builds promote laziness and frustration with 'no skill' builds in a competetive pvp enviroment.... which anet is always constantly trying to eliminate.

....and considering the alternative .....(nerfing the class to oblivion)... I think it would be a better option... gimmick builds will always be around... but they always get adjusted/nerfed...

the paragon class (in light of recent tournies) will most likely receive another nerf in the near future. Making it difficult for people (like me) to continue to promote usage in all aspects of the game.

The paragon is facing a problem in both realms pve..and pvp... and the only thing that makes them overpowered is the fact that they are completely overpowered when there are more than 2 or 3+ on a team....

no one would be complaining about their armour, dps, or shouts if they only had to deal with one per team ....

Dr Strangelove · Jun 02, 2007, 07:35 AM // 07:35

The idea for limiting classes has come up several times in the past, and it's still lame. Fix the skills that are causing the imbalance, don't ignore it and place arbritrary restrictions on the game.

Besides, if you limit it like that then we'll just get people running secondary paragon exploiting the same broken mechanics.

thedeadwalk! · Jun 02, 2007, 07:44 AM // 07:44

/notsigned

Seems people are taking a too complicated a look at dealing with the class. The problem isn't that there's too many paragons or that they're, really, too powerful. The main area of concern is their strong involvement in a field that has extremely little resistance: shouts and chants.

Vocal Minority and Ulcerous Lungs are on the right track but they do nothing to address removing them. Everything else in the game can be removed but not shouts and chants. Throw in some more skills for necromancers, smite monks, mesmers, hell, maybe some tactical warriors and deadly arts sins. Maybe even an air ele can make a sonic boom clearing the air of all shouts and chants.

Other skills that have been nerfed also have the weakness to be removed or at least some kind of available resistance somewhere. Give the classes the means to fight paragons and we can better ensure continued enjoyment of a rather ingenious class.

MithranArkanere · Jun 02, 2007, 11:12 AM // 11:12

The only problems with-all-same-class is that they are 'specialty-spikes'. IF you bring a balanced group, you can't fight them all.

The solution would be profession synergy.

Something each class gives to other, but not those of the same profession.

Lydz · Jun 02, 2007, 11:19 AM // 11:19

/notsigned

I can see it now: Limit the number of eles in a team! Too much damage! OR No more than 2 monks please! Too much healing!

I'm sorry but that's just pointless. There are many other ways to deal with problems like this.